Author Topic: Where have all the centrists gone?  (Read 773 times)

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Giuliano Taverna

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Where have all the centrists gone?
« on: April 20, 2009, 08:21:23 pm »
With politics getting more and more polarized is there any such thing as a moderate politician anymore? How do we the true silent majority take back our country?
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Schizo

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2009, 03:07:53 pm »
 The moderate politicians are out there - they just get torn down and demonized until they finally give in and join the rest of the pigs in the mud pit. Few people want to listen to moderates. I honestly can't think of a way to fix the polarization. Any attempt to speak out usually doesn't end well.

 
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Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2009, 08:51:03 pm »
In general centrists are the most hated of all political groups, in my experience wingnuts and moonbats will sooner get along with each other than they will get along with a moderate.

At least it seems to play out that way in elections, candidates on the right like Rudy were called out by liberals for his liberal policy stances and this helped him lose the republican primary. I suppose he wasn't quite liberal enough for them, and they were afraid he could actually win.

The same thing happens to people like Joe Lieberman.

Which is probably why people like McCain run as partisans even when they clearly are not.
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar

Alia

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2009, 10:30:12 pm »
The problem with "moderation" is that in the sacrifice and watering down of ideals, the individual invariably loses more support from his allies than he can hope to gain from his opposition for the throwing of mere bones.

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2009, 11:36:45 pm »
what if your ideals are a watered down version of what each side thinks about a specific issue?

I mean take the economy, some people think we should have a command economy, some people think we should have a laze fare free market economy.

I tend to think we should have private ownership of goods, and a free market, with limits placed on corporations that become too powerful, or "too big to fail."
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar

SandStone

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #5 on: April 23, 2009, 12:28:38 am »
With politics getting more and more polarized is there any such thing as a moderate politician anymore? How do we the true silent majority take back our country?

You know me, I don't really believe the term moderate is an accurate term. I'm not even really sure Centrist is an accurate term either considering so many of the modern political philosophies start with completely different sets of premises and ideals.

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #6 on: April 23, 2009, 12:44:19 am »
Well since you are a radical libertarian I'm not sure you are the best judge of moderation.

Not everyone thinks Ayn Rand and Milton Freedman's vision of a capitalist society is either desirable or feasible.
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Alia

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2009, 02:03:05 pm »
What I think about the issue is that half-measures are always killer. Any pure philosophy, with the naturally attached and definite ways of handling issues, has a chance of success. But when you attempt to mix Communism and Capitalism, you end up with America. Or China.

Because we're unwilling to be unwilling to compromise, we end up with the ills of Capitalism (the people at the bottom struggling, starving, losing houses, losing property, going into debt) and the ills of Communism as well (such as Welfare, entitlement-based charity, lack of any punishment of failure for irresponsibility).

Mixed systems are killer, because in a mixed system you often end up with the ills of all and the benefits of none. The same is true with compromise of ideals; it's killer. Only if a philosophy is followed can it have the desired result; you don't start a sequence of moves on a chessboard designed to offer a definitive chekmate, then "compromise" with another strategy, or get cold feet halfway through and break off your resolve.

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #8 on: April 24, 2009, 04:11:06 pm »
well in theory you could have the proper mix of both, combining their benefits, instead of combining their ills.
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar

Alia

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #9 on: April 24, 2009, 05:34:31 pm »
well in theory you could have the proper mix of both, combining their benefits, instead of combining their ills.

That's what everyone hopes for, but in reality it's not possible. The broad masses are so stupid that they don't know good from harmful, and have to be taught reactionarilly what to object to.

For example, if we lived in a pure Capitalistic Democracy, the people would know to object to welfare and bailouts. If we lived in a pure Socialist system, the people would know to object to the present state of the "middle" class.

The nature of the Politician is such that he is able to pass anything harmful off as beneficial, and the only defense against such is childhood indoctrination to a system that precludes whatever garbage the Politician happens to be trying to sell. In other words, "This is America; we don't do that here."

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #10 on: April 24, 2009, 08:13:32 pm »
But you haven't effectively argued that it is not possible, your argument states that it is not politically possible in America. And I agree with you in theory, which is why a lot needs to change.

Real change, not Obama's change, which is the noun not the verb.
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar

SandStone

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #11 on: April 25, 2009, 01:32:27 pm »
Well since you are a radical libertarian I'm not sure you are the best judge of moderation.

Not everyone thinks Ayn Rand and Milton Freedman's vision of a capitalist society is either desirable or feasible.

I'm not sure why an ad populum defense makes you right and me wrong but whatever.

And really? Just because I'm a libertarian I can't propose that "moderation" is a misnomer when it comes to politics?

All political ideologies start with different and varying premises, which means they are not inherently related. The dichotomy between "left" and "right" is false. Because there are plenty of political ideologies that do not fall within this narrow band of political philosophies. They all start from different origins.

So again, I ask moderate in relation to what?

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #12 on: April 25, 2009, 04:06:41 pm »
moderate as in one who falls in the middle of the political spectrum. Moderates of any ideological lean generally have more in common than they do with any extremist.

"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar

SandStone

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #13 on: April 25, 2009, 05:17:14 pm »
moderate as in one who falls in the middle of the political spectrum. Moderates of any ideological lean generally have more in common than they do with any extremist.

I disagree with the validity of a comprehensive "political spectrum". I think different political ideologies are separate and unrelated to most other political ideologies because they stem from different sets of modus operandi.

And I think the use of terms such as centrist and extremist, moderate and radical are misleading.

Since anything strongly opposed to any one modus operandi could be classified as extremist or radical from the point of view of the individual. As well anything opposed yet not totally in disagreement with any one modus operandi could be classified as moderate or centrist.

And since these things  (to me at least) seem to all stem from different modus operandi the use of moderate and centrist extremist and radical seem quite misleading (from my perspective).

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Where have all the centrists gone?
« Reply #14 on: April 25, 2009, 05:21:59 pm »
Yes but of the major political ideologies a moderate is one who takes a stance in between apposing view points.

Its not a philosophy or an ideology, it is a category.

And this forum was intended to be centrists only, meaning you shouldn't be posting here if you don't consider yourself a centrist.

If you want to debate the legitimacy of centrists, we have a debate forum. If you want to discuss political ideology we have a theory forum.

Please respect the rules of this forum.
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar