Giulianos Forum

Just because the ideology is similar does not mean the threat is. Islamic Terrorism is in no way comparable to Nazi Germany's imperialist move to conquer all of Europe. We don't need to "nip it in the bud" because they are a bunch of rag tag sand people that don't bare us any real threat.

That's horribly racist. they are not "sand people" they are a network of terrorist organizations that are highly sophisticated and capable of maintaining military campaigns without the need for territory. This makes them an extremely dangerous threat because they can be anywhere, at any time. All they need is either sanctuary, or stealth. You know full well they are a threat, just look at what they have already done! They have toppled governments, bombed cities, and assassinated heads of state. That is an incredible threat. To suggest otherwise is either to express denial, ignorance, or insanity.

No we invaded Afghanistan in order to apprehend the masterminds behind 9/11. We were not on a mission to spread democracy.

Getting the masterminds of 9-11 isn't going to prevent the next 9-11. That is what you don't seem to understand or at least that is what you don't seem willing to accept.

The Taliban got in our way that's why they were "dismantled" at the time. Although as recent events have clearly shown any attempt to dismantle said group is short lived and futile.

Not at all, the resurgence of the Taliban has nothing to do with its capabilities and everything to do with our mistakes. We haven't been able to summon up enough resources and manpower do in large part to the misinformation polluting the policy debate, and its effect on our willingness to devote resources to this cause.

It's like trying to forcefully break up the mob... which didn't happen for decades until internal circumstances broke them for us. Furthermore, it's like trying to break up the mob in a different country. It's simply not feasible

There is a huge difference between the mob, and al Qaeda. The mob existed because of human nature, greed. They organized to illegally acquire wealth and for mutual protection. Al Qaeda uses similar organization, but they do something that goes against human nature. They commit suicide for a belief. Because this goes against human nature it is much easier to eliminate, and much more difficult to maintain. The only reason it has been so difficult for us is that we lack unity on the issue, and as a result we are losing the propaganda battle to the enemy who are united ideologically on enough issues to avoid the divisions holding us back.

nor is it our problem. Our only moral obligation is to the U.S. it's interests and it's citizens.

So the rest of the world can eat cake and you don't care? I have new for you, the rest of the world is going to kill us one of these days for thinking that way. They see us with all this money, power, and success. They live in a war torn third world hell hole, some Imam tells them everything that is wrong with their life is our fault. And they strap bombs to themselves and blow up our cities. That is how this works. So unfortunately for your isolationist contention, it is in our interest. Even if you don't give a sh1t about the rest of humanity like some people, myself included, do.

Osama was the one ultimately responsible for the 9/11 attacks, I didn't say he was a problem now.

So this is about revenge to you, not national security? That's pointless!

The condition of the Islamic world is not our problem, and further meddling in middle east affairs will only lend us more grief later on. As is seen from the result of our arming the Taliban in the 80s.

We didn't arm the Taliban to improve the quality of life in Afghanistan, we did it to attack the Soviet Union by proxy. You are comparing apples to oranges, its not a legitimate comparison.

No amount of war can solve cultural and religious hatred, in fact it's like pooring gasoline on a fire.

 The purpose of all war is ultimately peace

Whether or not a middle east country falls into anarchy is not our concern.

So we should just make some pop corn, sit back in our lazy boy furniture, turn on our big screen TV's, and watch Iraqi women and children get beheaded by death squads from the comfort of our McMansions on planet dow. I'm sorry but I don't endorse such an absurd notion. If you see someone being murdered, you do something to help them. That goes for the tens of thousands of people in Iraq.

Not our citizens, not our country, not our business. Rwanda was a perfect example of why we should stay the hell out of savage nations that don't want us there.

Its a perfect example of what? We didn't do anything! The UN didn't do anything! People were just slaughtered wholesale by a rival tribe!

How many more American soldiers have to die for foreigners that hate us and hate our ideals before the globalist "moral imperative" is complete?

How many more humans have to die before Americans will grow a spine and some sense of humanity and lift one of their fat fingers to stop this madness?!

Considering this ideology has been in practice since Vietnam and possibly Korea going on 50 to 60 years now it seems needlessly endless when the fruits of the labor are by any measure less then amicable.

Vietnam wasn't the war we lost, it was the war we gave up, and we won Korea! South Korea lives, and it is an economic powerhouse, and a bastion of democracy.

It's a conspiracy that Bush lied about WMDs being in Iraq?

We had bad intelligence, he didn't lie, and WMD's were one of many reasons why Saddam needed to be overthrown.

It's a lie that is apparently well documented then everything from false testimony given to congress by Secretary Powell to distorted evidence presented by Rumsfeld about "mobile weapons caches" that never existed. That's not a conspiracy that's an open lie made to the public.

No those are statements made based on widely accepted and reputable intelligence that happened to be mistaken.

Globalism is not progress because it seeks to undermine and artificially change human nature before human nature is ready.

That's absurd, Globalism wasn't something people started. It is something that happened naturally as markets expanded do to free trade, and enhanced mobility. It is being artificially restricted by rogue governments, and reactionary extremists. Which is why I am proposing we eliminate these groups preventing the natural progress of humanity.

It won't work, and it's "progress" has brought us 3 major wars now 2 of which look like they will have lasted more then a decade before all is said and done.

Wars typically last a while, this short term, "home by Christmas" mentality is stupid. Its naive, and its stupid. Furthermore its dangerous. WW2 lasted almost a decade, the cold war lasted about 50 years. How can we ever effectively fight a war if we are too spineless to fight to win?

They've brought us financial ruin,

Bull! Our defense spending is a measly 4% of our GDP! It was higher in the early 1990's before Clintons defense cuts.


http://www.heritage.org/research/features/budgetchartbook/fed-rev-spend-2008-boc-s7-despite-war-costs-defense.html

And bare in mind, that is total defense spending, the amount we actually spent on both wars is a fraction of that. Its less than 1%.

loss of sovereignty,

In what capacity? I'm fine with some loss of sovereignty, I don't think nations should have the right to persecute minorities, commit crimes against humanity, and I believe they must create a basic level of prosperity for their populous with competent non corrupt government. and failure to do this in my mind, destroys their legitimacy as a nation state, and opens them up to foreign rule. I don't see any reason why people need to be governed by native members of their country. The very idea is based on racists xenophobic tendencies.

too much emphasis on foreign treaty,

Diplomacy is necessary, however we need competent diplomacy. the Obama apology tour is the flip side to the bush shot gun policy. We need the carrot and the stick, not just a ton of sticks, (bush) or a ton of carrots (Obama.)

wasted hours and effort in search of middle east peace,

hours spent on making peace in the middle east is not a waste by any definition of the term.

and millions of lost American lives.

I don't care about American lives, I care about human lives. The number if lives lost if we do nothing, far outweighs the amount lost if we do take action. Its as much a question of principle as anything. You can't say you believe in inalienable human rights, and then say they only apply to people living inside the American security bubble. You either believe in them, or you don't.

You can keep your progressive globalism, I don't want it. Our primary concern should not be with humanity it should be with U.S. citizens end of story.

And you can keep your xenophobic isolationism. Just don't claim you believe in anything in the bill of rights, because you are just fine when the rest of the world is denied them. And when floods of people beat down your border wall, because your policy allowed them to be driven from their homes, and you with your demoralized broken society try and fail to keep them out. You will have fully embraced the fate of the Roman empire you spend so much time denying you mimic in almost every capacity!

Obama isn't going far enough? I suppose if you are in favor of European Socialism

You know that's bullsh1t. don't play games here.

and foreign interventionism

You know full well I do.

then I could see why you might think that. I'm not in favor of that. I'm not happy that he's sending in my friends and our people to die for people that don't want us in their country, and for a vague non-specified cause.

Its a simple cause, to fix a broken nation, so that terrorism will disappear, and the threat which puts the entire world at risk will be ended.

Seems like we are having war just for the sake of war these days.

We should always have at least one war, because there are no shortage of enemies. Not people who I am suggesting we declare war on, people who have committed countless Casus belli against us, and against our allies already. Yet we sit in our bubble isolated from the rest of the world and reality, and ignore this until the enemy attacks us. Then we run in, blow some stuff up, and retreated with our fat stubbly tails between our legs when we realize people die in war, and the enemy isn't going to go down in 2 days with no casualties.

So we are attacked again, and again. And will be attacked again, and again. Until we are consumed by the world we spend so much time ignoring.

We are leaving Iraq in June or did you not hear the Iraqi prime minister told us to get the hell out?

I hear our commanders, the ones who aren't politically neutered by the Obama administration. And I know exactly what will happen if Iraq becomes a failed state. If you think we have a problem with the Somali Pirates, just wait for Al Qaeda dominated Iraq.

I say good we should have never been there in the first time, it's about time we brought home our soldiers from a course not worthy for them to lose their lives over. And you think we should institute a draft? The government can draft me when I'm dead.

You can go to Canada like the anti war nuts in Vietnam did, I'll send you a post card from Bagdad when I am inevitably drafted because of the policy I support.