Author Topic: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand  (Read 853 times)

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Giuliano Taverna

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Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« on: May 07, 2009, 02:11:50 am »
Noam Chomsky

http://www.chomsky.info/bios/2004----.htm

Ayn Rand


http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_ayn_rand_aynrand_biography


what is a libertarian?

Well in Europe, its an anti capitalist Marxist.

http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libsoc.html

In America its an anti Marxist capitalist.

http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A1

How can you have this extreme divergence between two ideologies both claiming the title of Libertarian?

Commonalities. They both reject authority, reject statism, tend to be anti war, and tend to favor limited government.

But that is where the similarities end. They are diametrically opposite on economic issues, and their ideal form of existence is radically different.

Its hard for me, someone who is ideologically centrist to judge between two extremist semi anarchists ideologies. But the best way to explain them. Would be to see the world in two different ways, while at the same time having the same goal. That is the desire for freedom.

Beyond that, I am incapable of going further. I know not how either group sees the world. I know how I do, and I know it has to be radically different than how they do. Plus in my case, its not the desire for freedom only, but the desire for the best possible outcome for the most people, which is usually but not always precipitated by freedom.
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SandStone

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #1 on: May 07, 2009, 03:57:30 am »
Yeah I'm calling bullshit on "libertarian socialism", seeing as how those two ideologies are markedly opposed to each other.

Also Libertarianism is American born, so "European" version of libertarianism are illegitimate ideologies. Especially if they involve Marxism which is strictly opposed to libertarian ideals.

You need to learn to stop pointing to individual biased sources and going "LOOK LIBERTARIANISM IS BAD! AND IT ACCEPTS MARXISTS AND RACISTS!"

Because that is not the case, and it is quite frankly getting really annoying.

And if this was aimed to get my attention, well it worked but you aren't going to change me into a "moderate" (if that is your intention) by pointing to a socialist website and showing "alternative" brands of libertarianism or showing  me some racists on youtube calling themselves (incorrectly I might add) libertarians.

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2009, 10:13:11 am »
You seriously need to get over yourself, not everything is about you and your precious American security bubble.

Libertarianism is not "American" neither is democracy, in fact this country hasn't invented a goddamn thing! Everything you consider American existed in some form in Europe before America even existed.

And libertarian socialism does exist, and is a legitimate political philosophy, so get off your high horse!

You should know this topic had not a dam thing to do with you, it just so happens I watched some interesting lectures of Chomsky on youtube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ghoXQxdk6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugq86q9KyPE

and I was inspired to make this topic, and draw the distinction between the two forms of libertarianism.

Maybe you should educate yourself before jumping to biased and foolish conclusions.
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar

SandStone

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2009, 10:33:18 am »
You seriously need to get over yourself, not everything is about you and your precious American security bubble.

Libertarianism is not "American" neither is democracy, in fact this country hasn't invented a goddamn thing! Everything you consider American existed in some form in Europe before America even existed.

And libertarian socialism does exist, and is a legitimate political philosophy, so get off your high horse!

You should know this topic had not a dam thing to do with you, it just so happens I watched some interesting lectures of Chomsky on youtube,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ghoXQxdk6s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugq86q9KyPE

and I was inspired to make this topic, and draw the distinction between the two forms of libertarianism.

Maybe you should educate yourself before jumping to biased and foolish conclusions.

Ok bud, you're totally right I'm the one that needs to educate myself by going to no name less then reputable websites and drawing conclusions from what some anonymous person rights.

I couldn't possibly be educated on what libertarianism is or where it started because it's not like I've been a libertarian for over 3 years now. Yes you are so totally right this isn't a pattern of behavior on your part talking about how libertarianism only appeals to radical mind sets and is full of neo-nazis, neo-confederates, racists, conspiracy theorists, and now socialists.

I didn't say this was about me but it seem you are the uninformed one and are drawing conclusions repeatedly from biased of nonfactual sources repeatedly in order to express some sort of bias towards libertarianism.

I wouldn't expect this kind of behavior out of you, I would expect someone like you to rationally debate the points of a philosophy or ideology if you have problems with it instead of attempting to go through some roundabout character assassination.

"libertarian socialism" is another term for socialist anarchism. It is not libertarian in origin it is anarchist in origin, because the first modern usage of the term libertarian was in an American Communist newspaper by a socialist writer.

The modern Libertarian movement and philosophy is in strict opposition to these ideals and WAS founded in America in the 1960s. The term has been in use far longer, but when you refer to "libertarianism" in the modern sense you are referring to the American philosophy and political movement not Socialist Anarchism who's main tenet is complete elimination of coercion in any and all forms not the freedom of the individual as is the main tenet and focus of modern libertarianism.

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2009, 10:52:04 am »
You who didn't even know about Ayn Rand before I told you about her, nor Milton Freedman before I told you about him, are now claiming you know more about libertarianism because you actually are one. I would argue that fact that you are one is proof that you have no idea what it is about.

Now, again you start the basis of your argument on a straw man. That I am saying your brand of libertarianism is the same as that of Noam Chomsky... are you on drugs?

Of course I'm not saying that, the entire point of this topic is to discuss why we have two ideologies claiming the same name that have so little in common.

And again, its not about you, not everything I do is about you. Get over yourself!

To add, Libertarianism started with Adam Smith, in Scotland. So no, its not American!

Do you even know who Adam Smith is, or do I need to teach you about him too?
« Last Edit: May 07, 2009, 10:54:25 am by Giuliano Taverna »
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar

SandStone

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2009, 11:19:15 am »
You who didn't even know about Ayn Rand before I told you about her, nor Milton Freedman before I told you about him, are now claiming you know more about libertarianism because you actually are one. I would argue that fact that you are one is proof that you have no idea what it is about.

Now, again you start the basis of your argument on a straw man. That I am saying your brand of libertarianism is the same as that of Noam Chomsky... are you on drugs?

Of course I'm not saying that, the entire point of this topic is to discuss why we have two ideologies claiming the same name that have so little in common.

And again, its not about you, not everything I do is about you. Get over yourself!

To add, Libertarianism started with Adam Smith, in Scotland. So no, its not American!

Do you even know who Adam Smith is, or do I need to teach you about him too?

Adam Smith did not start Libertarianism, though some site him as influential in formation of certain libertarian ideas. And yes I know who Adam Smith is, he's one of my favorite philosophers.

The fact that I didn't know who Ayn Rand is, is besides the point. She's not even a libertarian really, and I've decided I'm not really an "objectivist" as she defines the philosophy. Milton Freeman, is not as popular in Libertarianism as Rothbard and Mises (the two economists I have always looked to for economic philosophy), whom I have known about since I became libertarian 3 years ago. The fact that I didn't know about one guy who I don't much agree with anyways on several things does not speak to a lack of education on my own political ideology.

I am well versed in the differences and have had this discussion with numerous people. Libertarian Socialism is not historically or ideologically a brand of modern Libertarian philosophy. Just because they share a label does not make them at all similar or related.

My point is not likening the two, it is that you are incorrectly positing that two forms of libertarian ideology exist. Only one exists "libertarian socialism" is not libertarianism it is a form of anarchism that has nothing to do with libertarian tenets. Lots of people claim the label of libertarian incorrectly, Sean Hannity for instance is fond of doing this.

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2009, 11:38:39 am »
I hate to break this to you, but your brand of libertarian don't get to monopolize the word.

You can say, they aren't libertarians, we are. But they will say the same thing in response about you.

Since I don't have any allegiance to either point of view, from my perspective there are two libertarianisms. Your kind, and the socialist kind.

If you'd like to talk about the differences, and the similarities, instead of throwing a hissy fit about this topic and how you don't like me calling libertarian socialists libertarians even though that is what they are called, then by all means continue, otherwise cease and desist.

And before you start anything, I would remind you that you have every right to post your own topic to say whatever you want about this. But this topic, its subject, and its parameters have been defined, and if you want to post in it, you must follow them.

Of late, you have been extremely oppositional, and disruptive and I expect that to stop.
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SandStone

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2009, 12:25:40 pm »
I hate to break this to you, but your brand of libertarian don't get to monopolize the word.

You can say, they aren't libertarians, we are. But they will say the same thing in response about you.

Since I don't have any allegiance to either point of view, from my perspective there are two libertarianisms. Your kind, and the socialist kind.

If you'd like to talk about the differences, and the similarities, instead of throwing a hissy fit about this topic and how you don't like me calling libertarian socialists libertarians even though that is what they are called, then by all means continue, otherwise cease and desist.

And before you start anything, I would remind you that you have every right to post your own topic to say whatever you want about this. But this topic, its subject, and its parameters have been defined, and if you want to post in it, you must follow them.

Of late, you have been extremely oppositional, and disruptive and I expect that to stop.

I'm not being disruptive, as far as I'm aware I haven't done anything against the rules in here and I'm certainly not throwing a "hissy fit". Unless those are words you use to show you dislike someone disagreeing with you and the premise of the thread.

You can think what you like, but you are wrong for the reasons I have already laid out. Libertarian Socialism derives from Anarchy not modern Libertarian philosophy, the fact they share the same label according to some people does not mean they are related. They are about as related as Conservatism and Neo-Conservatism, whereas Neo-Conservatism draws its roots from the progressive movement not from the Conservative one.

Giuliano Taverna

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Re: Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
« Reply #8 on: May 07, 2009, 04:32:49 pm »
Quote
Rule 4.The topics are fairly well defined, don't post in the wrong section.

Do you accept the premise of this topic? I have already told you if you want to rant about libertarian socialists post your own topic in the debate forum. This is not the place for this kind of argument.

And yes you are throwing a hissy fit, and it has nothing to do with the fact that you assume we disagree. Since I'm neither a libertarian capitalist nor a libertarian socialists I have trouble understanding just what the disagreement is. However you throwing a tantrum because I used the correct label for something and you refuse to accept that, is not something I am in the mood to tolerate. This is your last warning.
"It is the duty of a good shepherd to shear his sheep, not to skin them." Tiberius Caesar