Politics > Small Government - Anarchist.
Reconciling Noam Chomsky with Ayn Rand
Giuliano Taverna:
Noam Chomsky
http://www.chomsky.info/bios/2004----.htm
Ayn Rand
http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=about_ayn_rand_aynrand_biography
what is a libertarian?
Well in Europe, its an anti capitalist Marxist.
http://flag.blackened.net/liberty/libsoc.html
In America its an anti Marxist capitalist.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/libertarianism.html#A1
How can you have this extreme divergence between two ideologies both claiming the title of Libertarian?
Commonalities. They both reject authority, reject statism, tend to be anti war, and tend to favor limited government.
But that is where the similarities end. They are diametrically opposite on economic issues, and their ideal form of existence is radically different.
Its hard for me, someone who is ideologically centrist to judge between two extremist semi anarchists ideologies. But the best way to explain them. Would be to see the world in two different ways, while at the same time having the same goal. That is the desire for freedom.
Beyond that, I am incapable of going further. I know not how either group sees the world. I know how I do, and I know it has to be radically different than how they do. Plus in my case, its not the desire for freedom only, but the desire for the best possible outcome for the most people, which is usually but not always precipitated by freedom.
SandStone:
Yeah I'm calling bullshit on "libertarian socialism", seeing as how those two ideologies are markedly opposed to each other.
Also Libertarianism is American born, so "European" version of libertarianism are illegitimate ideologies. Especially if they involve Marxism which is strictly opposed to libertarian ideals.
You need to learn to stop pointing to individual biased sources and going "LOOK LIBERTARIANISM IS BAD! AND IT ACCEPTS MARXISTS AND RACISTS!"
Because that is not the case, and it is quite frankly getting really annoying.
And if this was aimed to get my attention, well it worked but you aren't going to change me into a "moderate" (if that is your intention) by pointing to a socialist website and showing "alternative" brands of libertarianism or showing me some racists on youtube calling themselves (incorrectly I might add) libertarians.
Giuliano Taverna:
You seriously need to get over yourself, not everything is about you and your precious American security bubble.
Libertarianism is not "American" neither is democracy, in fact this country hasn't invented a goddamn thing! Everything you consider American existed in some form in Europe before America even existed.
And libertarian socialism does exist, and is a legitimate political philosophy, so get off your high horse!
You should know this topic had not a dam thing to do with you, it just so happens I watched some interesting lectures of Chomsky on youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ghoXQxdk6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugq86q9KyPE
and I was inspired to make this topic, and draw the distinction between the two forms of libertarianism.
Maybe you should educate yourself before jumping to biased and foolish conclusions.
SandStone:
--- Quote from: Giuliano Taverna on May 07, 2009, 10:13:11 am ---You seriously need to get over yourself, not everything is about you and your precious American security bubble.
Libertarianism is not "American" neither is democracy, in fact this country hasn't invented a goddamn thing! Everything you consider American existed in some form in Europe before America even existed.
And libertarian socialism does exist, and is a legitimate political philosophy, so get off your high horse!
You should know this topic had not a dam thing to do with you, it just so happens I watched some interesting lectures of Chomsky on youtube,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ghoXQxdk6s
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ugq86q9KyPE
and I was inspired to make this topic, and draw the distinction between the two forms of libertarianism.
Maybe you should educate yourself before jumping to biased and foolish conclusions.
--- End quote ---
Ok bud, you're totally right I'm the one that needs to educate myself by going to no name less then reputable websites and drawing conclusions from what some anonymous person rights.
I couldn't possibly be educated on what libertarianism is or where it started because it's not like I've been a libertarian for over 3 years now. Yes you are so totally right this isn't a pattern of behavior on your part talking about how libertarianism only appeals to radical mind sets and is full of neo-nazis, neo-confederates, racists, conspiracy theorists, and now socialists.
I didn't say this was about me but it seem you are the uninformed one and are drawing conclusions repeatedly from biased of nonfactual sources repeatedly in order to express some sort of bias towards libertarianism.
I wouldn't expect this kind of behavior out of you, I would expect someone like you to rationally debate the points of a philosophy or ideology if you have problems with it instead of attempting to go through some roundabout character assassination.
"libertarian socialism" is another term for socialist anarchism. It is not libertarian in origin it is anarchist in origin, because the first modern usage of the term libertarian was in an American Communist newspaper by a socialist writer.
The modern Libertarian movement and philosophy is in strict opposition to these ideals and WAS founded in America in the 1960s. The term has been in use far longer, but when you refer to "libertarianism" in the modern sense you are referring to the American philosophy and political movement not Socialist Anarchism who's main tenet is complete elimination of coercion in any and all forms not the freedom of the individual as is the main tenet and focus of modern libertarianism.
Giuliano Taverna:
You who didn't even know about Ayn Rand before I told you about her, nor Milton Freedman before I told you about him, are now claiming you know more about libertarianism because you actually are one. I would argue that fact that you are one is proof that you have no idea what it is about.
Now, again you start the basis of your argument on a straw man. That I am saying your brand of libertarianism is the same as that of Noam Chomsky... are you on drugs?
Of course I'm not saying that, the entire point of this topic is to discuss why we have two ideologies claiming the same name that have so little in common.
And again, its not about you, not everything I do is about you. Get over yourself!
To add, Libertarianism started with Adam Smith, in Scotland. So no, its not American!
Do you even know who Adam Smith is, or do I need to teach you about him too?
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